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Problems with mass memory wipes.


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#1
truepurple

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With many many pages in comments discussing this, I'd thought I'd make a thread so people could discuss here instead. Much better place for it. No worrying about spoilers and no sorting through various other topics.

 

Though really, what is there to discuss.

 

1. How they manage to wipe everyones memories so selectively. Which goes from mass kidnapping and experimenting on, to subject takes a pill that somehow effects everyone else. So somewhere between utterly evil and illegal to utterly impossible and unfitting to a scientific setting (much more so than a pill that makes you only look younger), and it's going to be a bit of both either way; how ever they explain it, it has to be somewhere in there, I see no other way.

 

 Let's do ignore 1. for now, it is the the least of the issues here, only first because it is the most obvious one.

 

2. It's a horrifying thought for anyone to be erasing anyones memories. It's even scarier that it's a company that will do this again and again. AKA fridge logic. Memories are important to people. To who they are as people, to their anchors in their lives.  They would be seriously damaging people to erase good friends from their memories. They aren't just doing it to one person, but to a innumerable amount of people.

 

3. The male protagonist is right. The closer he gets to anyone, the more damage he will cause when the memory of him is erased. They are basically telling anyone with a conscience, don't use the re-life program as it is meant to be used. He is not there for a education, but they are basically telling him, don't do anything else. It defeats the whole point of things. And in practical terms, the story goes no where for a long time, in part because of this very issue. (also, I think the author has run out of ideas and is just dragging things out till zhe can think of something)  Even if the memory wipe is a lie, 3. remains as a huge issue.


Edited by truepurple, 06 September 2016 - 09:02 PM.


#2
GreatNinja

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For starters this isn't just a company this is a goverment sector(remember it was the goverment that passed a bill like beginning chapters,or ep1, tv news info) so really legality in a sense doesn't really count considering they make the law. and I already see no point of the legality and the effectivness problems of the program considering this goverment company has done this already, and has been succesful, so Arata and hishiro isn't the first person to have a relife program but they are the first in that area.

for number 2(cause this was from the guys who quoted me) i commented this Then this whole story shoulden't even exist just go to a councelor/psychologiest/therapist and this manga will end in no chapters. how is that for logic? also some points in the first paragraph. and another as stated yoaki countless times(maybe once) they won't totally erase their memories because they will still remember that their was this guy who did this and that to them(refer to the first kairiu arc) so more or less it will be one of those "i remembered this guy from HS but can't seem to remember his name and face but dude was really nice to me" it sometimes makes me wonder if i am reading the same things as you guys maybe you guys are more connected to the problems of kaizaki,oh nuu memory wipe i mean hishiro doesn't seem to have that problem cause she is more about questioning if she is a pedo or not unless that's a future arc, and I am more about yoaki cause his been saying this series,chill fam things will be better if you don't worry about the memory wipe, or maybe I am just too calm. but pretty sure sh*ts going to be fine so don't worry lol.

also if people will still complain about this,against a non-existent goverment, might as well put your thoughts in some forum post about what the real life goverment is doing secretly or something.because this place is turning into one if this topic keep appearing.


Edited by GreatNinja, 07 September 2016 - 06:46 AM.


#3
Quirriff

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There's another possibility.

 

The pill he takes makes him forgettable due to pheromones or something.



#4
magicarnival

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Its too late in the game now, but what would have made more sense is if he was given a fake identity for school and then once he "graduated" this identity was either killed or shipped off overseas or something so that he's never heard from again. That way, even if they ran into the adult version, they'd just think he was a relative or stranger who happened to look similar but was way too old to actually be him (with proof of ID to show he's a different person).

#5
GreatNinja

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Its too late in the game now, but what would have made more sense is if he was given a fake identity for school and then once he "graduated" this identity was either killed or shipped off overseas or something so that he's never heard from again. That way, even if they ran into the adult version, they'd just think he was a relative or stranger who happened to look similar but was way too old to actually be him (with proof of ID to show he's a different person).

Yeah killed off? want them to have a traumatic HS life? shipped off what if they dig on his info for their reunion wouldn't they question why their is no record of him in japan or the country he went.



#6
truepurple

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The biggest issue is, they don't need to wipe memories or make excuses. and if they were going to wipe anyones memory, it would be the subjects. The subjects know the most of anyone about the companies secrets, anyone else can only spin crazy sounding theories that no one would take serious, if it gets that far. And clearly they are a all powerful company so any leaks could easily be plugged specifically, ignoring how evil and detrimental the theoretical memory wipe is, it's just plain pointless and unnecessary.

You can't have the feels stick with you without remembering where they came from. The closer he gets to everyone, the more of a hole he leaves in everyone when the evil all powerful company mass wipes memories somehow.

Imagine he fell in love with a girl who wasn't also in the program. Got into a relationship with her. Leaves a year latter and he's mass wiped from her mind. If that girl does still have feelings for him, she's going to feel a profound loss that someone she loved so much, she can't even recall.

Or let's say he became close friends with someone, spending every day with them having fun and doing things with them. Mass memory wipe, friend gets stuck with a shadowy hole of having spent time with someone that was a good friend? But how could they be a good friend if I can't remember them. No, he shouldn't get close to them because the closer he gets, the more damage the evil all powerful company will do to them when he leaves.

Edited by truepurple, 26 September 2016 - 01:51 PM.


#7
7fragment

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It's probably more like a blurring than actual erasure. Like how sometimes you meet someone, and swear their name is Alice, only to see them again and find out it's Heather. Only taken to the nth degree. I don't imagine people wouldn't question suddenly not remembering a close friend from HS, but if that person just drops out of their life after graduation, and they can't remember a legit name/face combo to hunt them down, chances are eventually their memories will fade.

 

As for running into the person post-relife, it would be one of those moments when their like, I swear this person looks like someone I know, I just don't know from where.... so if the former subject keeps their cool all would be good.

 

The whole thing's probably a lot more subtle than people up there seem to be thinking.



#8
GreatNinja

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The biggest issue is, they don't need to wipe memories or make excuses. and if they were going to wipe anyones memory, it would be the subjects. The subjects know the most of anyone about the companies secrets, anyone else can only spin crazy sounding theories that no one would take serious, if it gets that far. And clearly they are a all powerful company so any leaks could easily be plugged specifically, ignoring how evil and detrimental the theoretical memory wipe is, it's just plain pointless and unnecessary.

You can't have the feels stick with you without remembering where they came from. The closer he gets to everyone, the more of a hole he leaves in everyone when the evil all powerful company mass wipes memories somehow.

Imagine he fell in love with a girl who wasn't also in the program. Got into a relationship with her. Leaves a year latter and he's mass wiped from her mind. If that girl does still have feelings for him, she's going to feel a profound loss that someone she loved so much, she can't even recall.

Or let's say he became close friends with someone, spending every day with them having fun and doing things with them. Mass memory wipe, friend gets stuck with a shadowy hole of having spent time with someone that was a good friend? But how could they be a good friend if I can't remember them. No, he shouldn't get close to them because the closer he gets, the more damage the evil all powerful company will do to them when he leaves.

They already explained why they can't erase the subjects memory right were you reading the manga properly?

 

It's probably more like a blurring than actual erasure. Like how sometimes you meet someone, and swear their name is Alice, only to see them again and find out it's Heather. Only taken to the nth degree. I don't imagine people wouldn't question suddenly not remembering a close friend from HS, but if that person just drops out of their life after graduation, and they can't remember a legit name/face combo to hunt them down, chances are eventually their memories will fade.

 

As for running into the person post-relife, it would be one of those moments when their like, I swear this person looks like someone I know, I just don't know from where.... so if the former subject keeps their cool all would be good.

 

The whole thing's probably a lot more subtle than people up there seem to be thinking.

This guy understand the point



#9
ian.iams571

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It's probably more like a blurring than actual erasure. Like how sometimes you meet someone, and swear their name is Alice, only to see them again and find out it's Heather. Only taken to the nth degree. I don't imagine people wouldn't question suddenly not remembering a close friend from HS, but if that person just drops out of their life after graduation, and they can't remember a legit name/face combo to hunt them down, chances are eventually their memories will fade.

 

As for running into the person post-relife, it would be one of those moments when their like, I swear this person looks like someone I know, I just don't know from where.... so if the former subject keeps their cool all would be good.

 

The whole thing's probably a lot more subtle than people up there seem to be thinking.

 

I used to think like a lot of people about mass government gas dispersal or slipping something into the drinking water but I slowly started to see another possibility. I think 7fragment is closer to the truth of it.

 

Complete erasure would only hurt the ReLife Candidates and I think the goal is to find and reform works who can work for the government agencies behind the program. To that effect, they really don't have to do much to erase the candidate from peoples minds. Because the human brain will do that for them.

 

We process hundreds of thousands of images and sensory data input every day and every day our brains discard unused information. All they need to do, is erase pictures, remove instances from yearbooks, videos and allow those kids to move on with their lives, and rather suddenly you have a memory wipe without having to lift a finger. Unless you have someone with an Eidetic Memory, your work is done for you. On top of that humans are very good at fooling themselves. People have a tendency to believe whatever makes the most sense. If confronted with an adult that looked like Kaizaki or Hishiro, most people would rationalize that person to just looking similar, unable to comprehend that there is a miraculous drug that can shave ten or so years off a person's life. Again, the work is done for the program and they never have to lift a finger.



#10
magicarnival

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Yeah killed off? want them to have a traumatic HS life? shipped off what if they dig on his info for their reunion wouldn't they question why their is no record of him in japan or the country he went.

Because getting their memories wiped won't have any side-effects at all~! I don't mean he's killed immediately in front of everyone at the HS anyway... you can just have the administration tell everyone a few years later he was in an accident or something. And if they're the type to go to the effort of checking "records" about him (uhhh... what records are you checking? Government? First of all, how would you even get those, second they're the ones funding this program, so they can make fake records...), then I'd think they'd also question inconsistencies in their memories.



#11
GreatNinja

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Because getting their memories wiped won't have any side-effects at all~! I don't mean he's killed immediately in front of everyone at the HS anyway... you can just have the administration tell everyone a few years later he was in an accident or something. And if they're the type to go to the effort of checking "records" about him (uhhh... what records are you checking? Government? First of all, how would you even get those, second they're the ones funding this program, so they can make fake records...), then I'd think they'd also question inconsistencies in their memories.

I few years later not like they won't try to set up a reunion after graduation, their not that close to go and meet each other in less than a year i guess. X's birthday fk that celebration to getting in a university none of that will happen so killing them some years later is better than killing them after graduation even though there are events that will allow them to meet after graduation.



#12
truepurple

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They already explained why they can't erase the subjects memory right were you reading the manga properly?

 

What, because they need to learn and grow or some stupid shit? It's a experiment, so they don't need the subjects to learn and grow, they just need to know the programs efficacy.

 

Also, the whole logic about fuzzy memory allowing you to keep the experience without the memory could just as easily be applied to the relifers as those around them. They can't remember spending a year looking 10 years younger and going to school, but it still changed them somehow. Yeah, I know, it's a lame concept, ever so much more when applied to the people around the relifers.

 

And if you have a whole memory hole of one year, that's going to be less harmful than specific parts of your life during that year.

 

Yes, we can forget stuff that happens to us, but if that happens to people who were important to us, we lose bits of ourselves. That's why Alzheimer is such a dreadful disease. This is the horror the company claims to plan to magically cause to many a person. It means the closer the protagonist gets to people, the more harm he causes when they magically destroy everyones memory around him, which sabotages the main point of relifing! Anyone with a conscience should avoid people, and if you avoid people, no point in the relife!

 

  And there's no bloody point or reason for them to delete memories in the first place! The company clearly has no need to be concerned about secrecy with their power, and information holes can be plugged individually anyway.

 

Hell, if secrecy is the concern, magically delete anyones knowledge of the relife program. Not the memories of the relifer themselves.


Edited by truepurple, 12 October 2016 - 05:04 PM.


#13
GreatNinja

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What, because they need to learn and grow or some stupid shit? It's a experiment, so they don't need the subjects to learn and grow, they just need to know the programs efficacy.

 

Also, the whole logic about fuzzy memory allowing you to keep the experience without the memory could just as easily be applied to the relifers as those around them. They can't remember spending a year looking 10 years younger and going to school, but it still changed them somehow. Yeah, I know, it's a lame concept, ever so much more when applied to the people around the relifers.

 

And if you have a whole memory hole of one year, that's going to be less harmful than specific parts of your life during that year.

 

Yes, we can forget stuff that happens to us, but if that happens to people who were important to us, we lose bits of ourselves. That's why Alzheimer is such a dreadful disease. This is the horror the company claims to plan to magically cause to many a person. It means the closer the protagonist gets to people, the more harm he causes when they magically destroy everyones memory around him, which sabotages the main point of relifing! Anyone with a conscience should avoid people, and if you avoid people, no point in the relife!

 

  And there's no bloody point or reason for them to delete memories in the first place! The company clearly has no need to be concerned about secrecy with their power, and information holes can be plugged individually anyway.

 

Hell, if secrecy is the concern, magically delete anyones knowledge of the relife program. Not the memories of the relifer themselves.

So you want them to have 2 fuzzy memory of high school?  and you also want the actual people who made relife erase their memories, how will that benefit the program they'll just waste tax payers money if they can't even remember they passed the bill.



#14
truepurple

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Better the two relifers have no memory of the relife program or their time in high school, then no one else have memory of them.

 

want the actual people who made relife erase their memories, how will that benefit the program they'll just waste tax payers money if they can't even remember they passed the bill.

 

Not sure exactly what you are saying here. But I feel pretty sure you are misunderstanding me.  If any of the students, teachers, librarians, bankers, people at convenient store etc. who aren't suppose to know of the relife program, learn of any of it, they simply delete those memories. Walla, the program remains secret. It should be much more doable, less expensive, and less harmful than erasing the memory's of persons from the mind of potentially hundreds of people who have encountered them during the time of a year.

 

No aspect of this mass memory wipe in the story makes sense. No matter what angle you look at it, there are less convoluted, fantastical, detrimental ways of accomplishing what ever they hope to accomplish by this. Presumably secrecy, which I just covered. But they haven't actually even explained why they would delete the memories of them from everyones mind, have they? (I can't recall, been awhile)

 

Also, clearly the company is super powerful and tyrannical/evil in nature. Undetected (it's amazingly tricky to track down everyone they ever met,[which would involve immense surveillance beyond what they have already shown] and do procedures on them to erase memories, with no one noticing people being grabbed and disappearing for a time and then returned) mass wiping all of selective memories is a technological or magical marvel of immense proportion. And clearly they have power over government since they are able to ignore the civil rights of mass numbers of people. Why even bother with the relife program then? Why not just take over everything and rule with a iron fist. No money's from the relife program could compare to the money and power they have and can take.

 

It seems to me the author wanted to do something with the concept of restarts and forgetting people, and be damned all the story. It really isn't good for the story, especially as the story centers around it. I mean a few interesting characters and ok subplots, but the rest is really crap IMO, stalled crap at that. If you like story like this done better, read "Again!!" (exclamation points are part of the name)


Edited by truepurple, 17 October 2016 - 03:20 AM.


#15
Cheese Ninja

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Honestly, I wish this series handwaved it as magic instead of a pill. I like the series, but science and logic don't fit into the initial premise all the well. If it was a whimsical god/wizard, it would make a lot more sense.

 

The super science involved in reLife, the massive organization, expense, and secrecy behind it would all have better/more useful/profitable real world applications.  Selective memory wipes and pills that change the apparent age of the person that takes them would be ridiculously valuable.